In this episode of the CDI CTO Podcast, Will Huber interviews the President of VMware, Sumit Dhawan. Learn more about VMware Explore, where VMware has been, and where it's going in its future.
Want to watch the first part of this two-part event? Visit our Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/CDIntegration
In this episode of the CDI CTO Podcast, Will Huber interviews the President of VMware, Sumit Dhawan. Learn more about VMware Explore, where VMware has been, and where it's going in its future.
Want to watch the first part of this two-part event? Visit our Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/CDIntegration
Welcome to the CDI CTO Podcast Presented by CDI Studios So to kick things off, I'm going to give you a softball. VMware’s had a long or CDI rather has had a very long history with with VMware. We have employees that work at the company that were on the first VM worlds right way back in 2004. It was in San Diego. We've been calling it VM World for a long time. And now this year, of course, is the first year we're calling it something different. So we're obviously we're calling it VMware Explorer. So can you talk about what went into the sort of the theme and the name change from VM World to explore? Oh, well, first of all, I'm going to say for those people who are joining back on the video, just so they know, we just went out and got a cocktail, so you better go get a vodka anyways. No, I think on the VMworld and explore. You know, it was a choice. We, we debated this last year towards the as we were thinking about what we wanted to do with our events. First question was do we bring back the events at all, right. And we said no. Our customers, we have lost touch with customers and customers had lost touch with us. And then we said, what are we? We had so many different events that were emerging. There were proposals that there were platform teams that needed its own event, and they didn't quite associate themselves with the infrastructure and developers, which we have a relationship with through spring had needed their own event. And so we decided that now it's time for us to create one event where two or three things fundamentally change and it's going to be multiple years before that event truly takes shape in terms of how we envisioned it. Firstly, different audiences than who have traditionally come, which is VI admins that have usually been there are invited. Okay, we did that. Actually, we were we were quite successful this time. Secondly, more independent content is available around cloud. We did that again. Some success. There was a full day dedicated to AWS, Azure, and Google, and they ran their own unmoderated uncontrolled content by us similar to what you can expect that the RSA Conference. So that's our goal, right? This goal is for us to make it so that when you or your teams are attending the VMware Explore, you're getting information that you won't get at any one conference because it's about multi-cloud. And multi-cloud is here. That's what you're going to have to face. And you're always going to need how to build and operate a single cloud. But you'll also, more importantly, going to manage multi-cloud environment, develop for multi-cloud environment, secure multi-cloud environment. And the goal for VM Explore is for that to be the center of your multi-cloud universe, if you may. And it's it's it's a big, audacious, hairy goal, whatever you call it. And and it doesn't happen in one year. We know that. But we started the journey. Well, it does seem it's interesting. There was a lot of commentary at the show, a number of people, I think the number of people where it was their first VMware conference. Right. Which I think is a great thing. Right. It means you are reaching the other personas and that the other types of people that you want at the show, the development community and all that stuff. So I think that that was a big success from my point of view. Yeah. Also, I think for the people who have lived and breathed, breathe VMware, it's a good thing. But at the same time it is a little bit of an opportunity for them to diversify their skills more than just managing which virtualization is necessary. Yep. So so speaking of new personas, right. I think to your point, VMware have sort of catered to the INO type of persona, the infrastructure and operations people, the VI admins, the network admin, the server admin, middleware teams, those types of groups. I think in a lot of cases in the development community specifically, there may still be a little bit of customer perception that VMware is sort of, you know, I'll use the legacy word, right? It's the old way. How do you overcome that, that customer perception when people think VMs are like, Oh, I've been building VMs since like 2005, right? And everything is about containers. And they may not be up to speed on a lot of the new messaging and the cross cloud stuff and the Tanzu innovations and all that stuff with the name VM and that company, right? Sanjay used to joke about renaming the company container ware or Container World. Can we see just like an explorer, could we see a branding changes at the right time with Broadcom? Could that happen? I don't know. It's a good question. You know, originally we didn't we haven't spent time with Broadcom on the the naming. We you know, Broadcom thought VMware is a very, very, very important brand in the industry. So they decided or at least have the time of the acquisition. And shortly after when we had the conversations, they decided that VMware will be the brand and the operating model for all of the software components of Broadcom now and in the future. If that do we do we debate it again? We don't know. We haven't since then pursued any kind of a discussion with Hock on that. I think I think more importantly, whether we change the brand name VMware or not, more importantly, I do think that one of the challenges we have run into because of the pandemic and I think it's not just a loss to VMware, it's a loss to all of our customers. Is that is that customers have a limited understanding of what they can get from VMware. VMware is a trusted partner of many of the people that may be watching this have built their careers. They have a lot of passion, interest, relationships and respect for VMware. And now VMware can enable them just like they have done in the past, to empower technologies and solutions for not just traditional applications which are well-proven and already working on VMware infrastructure, but also modern applications, edge portfolio. And it's just an evolution where during pandemic, without having constant touch, we have had a challenge. Yep. And the goal for this conversation is to remove the challenge for both parties so that you can leverage the best out of what VMware is delivering now. Yeah, no, I think it's been amazing to see over the years the diversification of the portfolio and, you know, sort of embracing the public cloud ecosystem and all the things you’re doing in the application space and a lot of the acquisitions you've made there. So, you know, VMware’s really broadened its horizons a lot over the years and is you know, you see it in the conference, it's not just the virtualization conference anymore. It's so much more than that, which I think is timely of the name change. Talk a little bit about the multi-cloud sort of strategy. Like it's clear it's all over the messaging. What is it about VMware and its position to help customers be successful with multi-cloud? I think customers for sure, cloud democratizes development and innovation and as you know, Will talked about the fact that we are going with this digital smart organization to win in the future. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. There are different industries, different organizations have a different definition of what to digitize, whether it's customer experience, new digital offers, digitizing the supply chain, whatever it may be. But digital organizations or digital smart organizations will in the future. And cloud democratizes the development or enablement of digitization. That's what cloud does. The problem with the democratization of the technology, which the last time we saw it was probably through x86, was, is that it creates very quickly chaos without any kind of without any kind of a platform centric control, without policies, without any kind of governance on how that democratization is applied, just like it has done, you know, as a citizen services, it actually can create chaos. And our goal is to be that, again, neutral Swiss Switzerland entity to give our customers choice, flexibility, speed, that cloud promises so that you can drive that innovation without the chaos. And we call that cloud smart. Cloud smart where you pick what services run on which cloud without compromising the speed, without compromising your operations, without compromising the integrity of your resiliency of the infrastructure or the applications. And it doesn't need to be runtime. This is the first thing or first time VMware had this has had this position. So it's important for you to know this. We're not saying you need VMware infrastructure for runtime. You don't have to abstract every cloud with our runtime infrastructure. You just have to think about abstracting from developer experience, how you're going to operationalize things, how you're going to secure your environment, how you're going to automate your environment regardless of what you choose for runtime. That's our position now because that's how that's what's most practical in the world of cloud. Okay, so those are the two differences. Firstly, not just democratize or, you know, any hardware which we have done in the past, like you mentioned, always used abstraction for that. But abstraction on in the past has always been runtime through virtual machines as a solution for VMware. And originally we thought in full transparency that we would want to do that with Kubernetes through for containers as well. But we have learned that by but that would again go against the model of democratizing the whole enablement of cloud. So now we have said it could be any runtime, any Kubernetes on any cloud. What you really want to quote unquote extract is how you are going to control it, how you're going to provide a developer experience that's agile and how you're going to make it resilient, secure. So having a platform that runs across this multi-cloud is the focus direction for VMware. Now, why VMware? Okay. Why would you not build it yourself? The problem is it's not easy and it takes up very expensive developer capacity from you. These are all open technologies. These are all modules that you can assemble yourself, but it's expensive. Expensive not just from cost perspective, but from talent perspective. We have hundreds of engineers dedicated in building something built on open modules that make sure it works at scale with partners such as CDI that ensure that it works for customers or for a large, large, large majority of customers who are not someone like LinkedIn or Google. You can't build it yourself. It's impractical. So that's why you leverage technologies that get proven through leverage, through multiple customers and through services from partners like CDI. So they just work for you with limited talent from your site booked into it. Okay. So that's our commitment and focus now for multi-cloud. And I think the runtime comment is key, right? We're seeing that in the product announcement. So Tanzu application platform supports runtimes like OpenShift. Right, as an example that was announced at the show. Right. So it's in our view right steps in the right direction where VMware is investing sort of further up the stack around that. How do I operate, how do I experience all those types of things around the infrastructure? The choice without compromise I think is key. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we've heard similar messaging and strategy in the past. Like I'm going to go back to like the Paul Maritz days like way, way back and back then even into Pat’s leadership, a lot of the messaging was around any app, any device in any cloud, right? And now the strategy, it's sort of an evolved version of that, but it's still very similar. Right. And I think some people might say, you know, the vision back then was was the right one. But just because it's the right one doesn't necessarily mean the timing is right for the market to consume it. So I guess the question is with with the with the strategy today, is the timing right? And what has changed now like it, our customers really, truly ready to sort of embrace the strategy and sort of go down the cloud smart and digital smart path. I think there are a couple of things that have changed. One is on the our observation on the customers side, I think on the customer side, what we are seeing is often the the big changes that customers have had experience with the cloud. They have built certain applications on the cloud. It has been in an understanding of what it takes to build and operate an application on the cloud. There is no sort of disillusionment on what it means. That wasn't the case years ago. Secondly, there is also our disillusionment of our run time abstraction for all applications is gone, right? We have embraced the idea that no, the cloud is about truly enablement and empowerment of developers to rapidly build applications. And the the reality is in the past we said any app on any device, on any cloud as long as it runs on VMware. Right. So, so now what we are saying is, sure, you can be cloud smart where you pick the applications that is best suited. If it's a traditional application that is making and updates at certain velocity, why would you put your expensive developer resources in refactoring it, keep running it as an infrastructure that's proven, which is more secure, which is VMware infrastructure. If you if you're worried about talent, if you learn about your data center, we have given you options to run it as a full service on any of your public cloud provider and choice of public cloud provider. Now if you're thinking about modern applications, you know, we would recommend don't lock yourself in so that you can you're building vertical stovepipes, as we talked about, for every cloud. Instead, think horizontally on how to enable the best dev experience, how to enable the best operating model, how to enable the best security it won't cost you more. It'll actually cost you less in rather than just building up a stack with a single cloud provider, you'd be surprised how many modules and services you have to go assemble to operate a new application on to Native Cloud. We now you're getting that as a full fledged solution that not just locks you into one cloud, but gives you flexibility onto multiple clouds. And that doesn't lock you in with Kubernetes. So that's the difference, right? We have evolved our thinking and customers have understood that it is not just all or nothing in one way or the other. The world is going to be quote, unquote You can call it hybrid or multi-cloud for a long, long time. Yeah. We agree for sure. How about some customer questions? Anybody out there with a question they want to ask Sumit? All right. So I have a question as it relates to consumption, specifically to Tanzu So from CDI’s lens, I’m with CDI and we've seen a lot of success momentum with Tanzu specifically in my space, in my specialized, I'd say commercial SMB type customers looking for more of an as a service type model they’re- You know, we're looking at this multi-cloud type view. Is there a plan or a roadmap for these these customers that commercial SMB space to consume tanzu more like a cloud type model, maybe, maybe VA MSP, CDI or a hosted model of something along those lines? Yeah, we were funny you ask a question, Will and I were discussing it this this earlier today and we, I met with a few customers and just to be clear on the taxonomy, you know, it's just you can call it the then the size of the customers and call them anywhere but any names, but commercial. As I think, Kyle, what you meant was customers maybe who don't have large teams of technical talent just because of their size and the reality is that what we are seeing is that customers across all sizes have to are are embracing native public cloud, cloud, native technologies, Kubernetes. But it becomes even more challenging for them to put expensive resources in building out a Kubernetes operating sort of module structure, team talent. And it's while they can embrace our products and solutions, implement them and run them because much of these are cloud services. However, I think the role of partners becomes even more important, either as providers who fully manage the lifecycle of the operation not just software, but just operations of Kubernetes, or continue to provide success in best practices services based on, again, the priorities and talent that the customers may have. I think that's just how it's going to work out, because there is not enough developer and talent that's graduating from schools to be able to be employed with all the training that's out there. So it has to be a leveraged model and I would encourage you to not I know it will require a little bit more of a thinking on how to structure your cost models, and there will be barriers that come in. But I do think that's a strategic way of thinking about it, is how to enable agility, how to enable dev experience, where else to squeeze costs so that that is not compromised, but doing it in a way so that you don't have a lock in to any cloud. Yeah, I would highly recommend that model. And then if you choose not to use VMware for for that solution, do something else, that's fine. And then I think relying upon us as a service provider that gives you that boost of skills and continuous supply of skills through learnings from multiple customers is the way to go, in my opinion, across many, many customers, because there is no way in the open source world which is to the benefit of a closed world that VMware provide as an abstraction of infrastructure was you just had one thing to learn, okay? And the thing that you had to learn, we could regulate the speed and pace of change because we knew you could only absorb so much. That's the truth. That's what we did. That's what you liked in the world worked beautifully. However, in the world of cloud and open source, that's not going to happen. The pace of change will be far more than your ability to absorb. It's impossible for you and most of you to stay with it. Impossible. We can barely stay with it. Okay. So as a result, relying on someone who's staying with it is a very positive. So it's a great question and I guess an observation I have that as the world sort of shifts more to this consumption model where everything is subscription versus perpetual, we are seeing customer buying patterns sort of gravitating more towards almost like a subscription model for service consumption as well, right? Where it's it's more predictable. It's delivered more as an OPEX as opposed to more of like a products based consumption model versus a project based consumption model. And we think that trend is going to continue. And for the right sized customer, too, right. There's different customers at different sizes and shapes will have different tolerances for being able to attract and recruit and retain and build versus just consume or buy. Right. So speaking of consumption, VMware is on a shift to be a SaaS based. You're you're like probably over the hump now from perpetual to subscription. Can you share with us where you are along that journey? Like what percentage of the revenue or however you want to classify it, but as you transition to a as a service SaaS based company, how is that how's that going? Okay. I mean, I think the the it's unfortunate that software we started the entire industry on the basis of any other hardware product which probably started based on any of the industrial engineering products like air conditioning’s were sold through a partners network and so did servers and unfortunately software followed. That's exactly what happened. We know that. Right. So, so, so the problem with the software world is that the life of a software is probably no more than days unlike any of the hardware component, just because of the pace at which it changes once we provide to customers. And in the world of cyber cybersecurity issues which occur in the software space, such as infrastructure, it it's really just a matter of days. So so then software models and evolved to this thing called maintenance and updates where we provide maintenance and updates as vendors and customers absorb and then, you know, life sort of went on and the and even that's suboptimal because what ended up happening as a result of just the economics of most companies was all kinds of funny enterprise agreements start putting in place where you're buying software that you're never going to consume in the spirit of getting the best possible maintenance of software that you are consuming. And so economics are working in a very unhealthy fashion. I think subscription models eliminate that. It's a very healthy model in the ecosystem because effectively you're going from all the risk that we place on the customers as a vendor. Once we have sold the product with a gun on your head to some extent to a shared risk model, that if you don't consume, we don't get paid after the renewal. So it's a very healthy model, keeping all the accountant side of it aside, which is just a content rules that are barriers. So don't get them wrong, but I think in general it's a very healthy model and it provides the best behavior in general because we focus on adoption consumption of our solutions by you, okay, so what is the hump that I care about in the company is when 100% of our employees are focused on how you are being successful as customers in using our product. All of the metrics are for shareholder stakeholders, blah blah, good. We track and we report them. But in all honesty and candidness, the entire leadership team cares about how someone at VMware walks home with their something that they really care about, which oftentimes is the paycheck, which is purely dependent on our customers becoming successful. And we are not there yet. Okay, I'll be the first one to say that we're not there yet, but we are making progress quarter after quarter and there and every- every quarter or every six months as we operate our rhythm of the business, we keep changing policies and rules to to make progress towards that objective. So you went there? I had this question buried in the stack, but I'm going to I'm going to pull it up to the top. So you mentioned the shift of consumption being top of mind, right? You can't make your customers successful unless the product is actually deployed and being used and delivering the value that the customer sort of set out to get from the beginning. How do partners and integrators play into that consumption strategy? Yeah, big role. Listen, I think we comes back to the skill set question. While our goal is to always make the products as simple as possible, our sellers and our teams in front of customers to provide the required knowledge expertise. But customers are going to need both services and help in implementing the product and oftentimes expertise and guidance from using the product in the best way. And we can't do it without partners. It's just not as a company, we're not set up to work. And that's okay. That's how that's how the world that's how the world and the entire experience works. And we're lucky to have partners who are committing their futures with our technology strategy. And and so we are we are very committed to building ecosystem. To be candid, we could be doing more than what we are doing, and we are only going to be doing more than what we are doing and making that ecosystem successful. Awesome. Thank you. Let's shift direction a little bit and talk a little bit about Aria, if you don't mind. I love it. I think a lot of people, when they saw the announcement, they thought, oh, this is just a new label on products that are already out there, right? Aria automation or Aria operations. And to some extent, that was a component of that announcement. That is true. Part of it is a rebranding. But can you touch on some of the other innovations like Graph an Aria hub and explain Aria, I guess holistically? Yeah. And some of the new components and not just the rebranding. Yeah. I think first of all, if you let's look at the product and then we can come back to name because because there's a lot of new stuff and there is some of the modernization of existing stuff. The new stuff, which is what is really exciting, is this thing called Aria graph, which is taking essentially using graph QL technology to look at all the public cloud resources that you may be using. Think of it like a Google for your usage of cloud, where it’ll essentially quickly take a track of every thing that your company is using in public cloud to be able to run any query on it, not just for, you know, information, perspective for cost and performance insights, but also to run automation. So to take specific actions through something called guardrails where you can provision capacity or change the provisioning of the capacity based on what you are seeing in your environment, either for cost or performance. Okay. It's very unique. It's designed, I would say, predominantly for public cloud because you can do most of that in private cloud using vRealize solutions and you don't need that dynamic agility in private cloud per se anyways, because to some extent you've put all kinds of sort of ticket requests and service requests to provision you capacity. I would say get rid of it, but you've done all that anyways. Okay. But in the world of cloud, again, democratization, of building new applications, people are building new applications at the speed or the developers are building new applications at the speed. And why they don't like your private cloud is because the ticketing system that you have in place. So the in that world the information just is not available for how to manage cost, how to manage security, how to manage performance and how then to make some automated actions based on the guardrails that you have in place. And no ticketing system can be designed for that, none. Okay, That’s what Aria is designed to solve, okay, so that you can code your policies rather than through tickets, through automation system. Now, second thing it does is it connects to your ecosystem of tools that you may have. Ecosystem of tools could be the your terraform for automation or doing provisioning as an example. And it also connects to ecosystem of private cloud automation, which is vRealize, okay, now when we build this, it is a new interface. Again, Google, like you go in, you start with search and you start putting in rules just like you do with Google in the world of search and you set up how you're going to operate with lot of information coming from various different sources. And in that designing the product, we also took the opportunity to modernize the experience of vRealize so that it snaps in beautifully. It works with the same delegated access, delegated information control for how you automating your private cloud. And when we did that, it was very difficult for us to keep the name of vRealize old, because it just didn't fit in in the console. Sure. Okay. So that's the backstory of why we decided to, while we were doing this, to also rename vRealize the original goal was to introduce this new tooling for you to manage public and private cloud in the ways you could never do without old, outdated ticketing system. This is the new way that you have to embrace because any ticketing system is going to get ignored anyways. And so that's your way to manage all your cloud, regardless of runtime coming back to that. And then when your VMware is the run time now Aria, other sort of things that you saw in the long list of Aria announcements that Will put up are to some extent a new minor versions or upgraded versions of vRealize portfolio that snaps into Aria from experience perspective from just you, you know, not just the UI, but also how it flows and how it works into the tooling. Okay, so that's background of our product. Cool. Shifting gears again, so one of the things Raghu said in the keynote was we want to let developers be developers, right? And sort of let them live in their native habitat and do what they do best, right? Without getting wrapped up in all this toil and all these other things. So how does VMware win over the development community with Tanzu and just overall? Yeah, I think what I have seen the best reactions for customers have been and it does come in after a, you know, first week or two of sort of getting used to things is when a developers use our Tanzu portfolio and there's just this sense of joy. Why because I've been a developer, the world of developers is that you write code, you submit the code, and after that there is someone who takes of making that ready for production. And if something goes wrong, I am on the hook. Okay. Sort of is the best way developer's mindset work because they're most optimized for writing code and writing the solution. Not necessarily spending tons of time thinking about how the infrastructure will be provisioned, how that load will be balanced, what is the secure network? How will the things be networked? That's not how developers think. The problem when we instituted this cloud first mentality was we shifted all the burden to developers. Two issues one, that's not how they think. Second, each developer is thinking and dreaming and designing their own way. What happens. Then any kind of an issue or you know problem means that you are now some central team is finding which developer did what wrong in your company and that you may never find out. Well, this is where you let developers be developers means let them do what they do best. They are the shortest skill set in this world. They are like oil. Okay, in the economy. Let them do what they do best. Write code, build a platform team that enables them to do so without letting them worry about infrastructure. That's our promise of Tanzu and Aria. That's what we are focused on enabling in our solution portfolio regardless of cloud. How does open source? I think it's not widely understood how much VMware actually does for the open source community. Can you highlight some of that contribution and maybe articulate? We have truly embraced open source in multiple ways. First of all, most of our Tanzu portfolio is production-izing open components. So and it's important in today's world because I would encourage if I were you to not go into proprietary solutions. So open technologies and open source open modules is even better. So you can snap in what you need. And secondly, we contribute heavily to open solutions as well. Kubernetes in particular, we are the top three contributors to Kubernetes itself, which is an open source solution. So, you know, and like Sanjay used to say, I mean, you may as well in the company, KubernetesWare in terms of how much we at this point of time contribute to the Kubernetes stack. So so it's a it's a pretty key component of VMware's solution of company as a whole. And it's almost something that is not new to us. It's woven into a fabric at this point of time. Awesome. So at Explore, obviously tons of announcements. Is there one that sticks out to you that you're most proud of? I mean, I think the the one that I am probably most proud of is I think VMware has always provided new innovation in the entire ecosystem and the industry. And I think we're I think we're going to look back probably 18 months from now and be thinking that what is powering your data centers, whether it's in your data center, hosting providers of public cloud and running your what you call maybe traditional workloads or VM workloads will be very, very different than it is today with vSphere8. What we are doing with GPUs and DPU’s and whether it's greatest space workloads that we have tested, which is, you know, rapidly caching or big data and AI based workloads, this whole ecosystem is fundamentally changing. Your future of data centers, whether it's again, in your data centers or hosting data centers, is going to look very, very different in my opinion. You know, you can call it 18 months, 24 months down the road. And I'm very proud. I mean, that's sort of what VMware is about, just reinventing the industry itself. And that's what vSphere 8 is going to do. It will take time for the industry to develop because of just this major technologies in the world of silicon that are getting developed for the software and some of the results that we have seen in terms of improvement in density and just standardization of workloads across a range of new servers, that fraction of cost with these new DPUs is amazing. And so I'm very, very proud of that. Awesome, awesome. How about one more customer? Customer question? Anybody out there? And the question was where do you see DPU’s fitting into the future. Like I mentioned, I think it's quite promising. It's early, but if you we did some testing with Redis-based workloads where and so if you're building new applications or more modern applications that require data and more sort of, you know, just fast lookup for caching perspective, it really is a great technology for that. There you're you're spending compute cycles for doing that work and it's taking away from logic, other logic that you may have to, you know, that's required for responsiveness to the end users. And we saw a significant boost. I remember the exact number, but it was between 25 to 30% of boost user density by offloading some of that, some of that to the DPU. Similarly, some of the network centric workloads, you know, at this point of time, if you haven't been taught about East-West traffic and lateral security in your own data center and how potentially some intruder which may already be in your network, sitting there observing every possible East-West traffic in your network, how you would put firewall rules that's built into the hypervisor itself, which we have implemented that take of compute cycles, how DPU’s can potentially help accelerate that significantly. Those are some of the significant value proposition that DPU’s can provide with vSphere 8 and sort of full VMware cloud foundation built on vSphere eight over the course of next year. Thank you, Kyle Last question for me. So of all the great things VMware does, right. And number one, I guess, are there any gaps in if you had a blank check book and you could acquire anything to integrate into the portfolio, what would it be? So I mean, I think I think you'd see VMware probably, you know, and this is something I can only comment assuming we were standalone, not quite sort of ready to be able to be commenting that in the context of potential change in ownership structure, you know, if we were standalone, you would see VMware provide probably more innovations through in the world of Cloud Native, the world of cloud native is a mess at this point of time. Just too many tools, very disjointed, all the way in the software development lifecycle and we are committed into it. At this point of time. We have poured in a significant amount of R&D and then through acquisitions that we have been busy integrating in our portfolio. So we can’t sort of just keep acquiring because you will say at some point of time, what the heck none of these are really coming together from a single company? So we are we're I think we are very close to completing that mission of integrating the acquisitions we have done. And if we were standalone, we would do more to make that cloud native solutions for the multi-cloud world much simpler, easier for our customers. It's a good answer. I mean, we agree the cloud native ecosystem is a mess. And just remember, it wasn't that long ago that the Kubernetes ecosystem was a mess. And look at what's happening. It's getting cleaned up with a lot of the things that that VMware and others need. And so that's great. Last call for in customer questions going once twice? Okay, well, Sumit hey we're we're just about out of time. I just want to say we've built a tremendous company and it doesn't happen without partnerships like the one we have with VMware. We're we're very gracious for your time and your support of of us of CDI and by extension of our customers as well. And we hope to see you again at a CDI event sometime soon. Same for us. We can’t build a company. The company consists of not just the technology but the customers and more importantly, partners make the customer successful. So thank you to CDI for doing that. Awesome. Thank you for being here and thanks to all the customers for being here as well. And we will I guess we have apps and we'll be mingling until about 7:00 or so. Yeah, yeah. It's cool. Thank you very much. Sumit that round of applause for Sumit. Thank you. Thank you.